Blurring Boundaries
The podcast about anything and everything controversial or avoided.From identity, politics and feminism, to travel, technology and sexuality, India chats with guests to discuss the topics that influence their lives. Talking about things that are important to them, they aim to have meaningful conversations around subjects that are sometimes controversial, avoided or that even go completely unconsidered in the world of today.
Blurring Boundaries
Revisited: What Does Being a Feminist Really Mean?
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In this episode, Blurring Boundaries' very own logo artist, Catrin, chats with India on how feminism has changed over the years, and what it means to be a feminist today. They cover topics from intersectionality and exclusionary feminism, to shaving and sexism in the media.
Logo Art: Catrin Harrison
Music by: Aleks Filipiak
Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of Blurring Boundaries. This week I'm going to be talking to my cousin Catherine Harrison, who is an artist, singer-songwriter, and basically just talented at absolutely anything creative. We had a really great chat about feminism, which happens to be one of my favourite topics to discuss. So I hope you enjoy as much as we did. Okay, right, here we go. I'm gonna not say that. I'm actually have just shut my podcast book with all my ideas in it, so I need to just open that back up. Hello everybody, welcome to the fourth podcast of Blurring Boundaries. I'm here with my very dear cousin Catherine Harrison. Hi Kat. Hi Din. I will introduce you for a bit of a mix-up because I normally introduce or ask people to introduce themselves, so it's my cousin. She's a really fucking great artist, and she is the one who created the logo. So if you haven't seen the logo, stop the podcast. Go back, have a look at the logo and be like, wow, this is who I'm listening to. And then now you can come back. But anyway, what else? Would you like to introduce yourself as well? Welcome to the podcast. You are one of the first people I invited to the podcast, so you should be honoured. I say this to most people, but anyway. And today we are gonna be talking about feminism, one of my all-time favourite subjects, and I'm so happy that I've got somebody who's I feel is probably as keen as it as I am. I've been I like trying not to push it on to some people, but I've been like, guys, here's the list of things I want to do. This is at the top. No pressure. But everyone's been like, please, but please. Um so I'm so happy that we've been able to talk about this. And we're just gonna see where it goes. I kind of wanted to start with talking about how feminism is kind of different than when it started out because I feel like to start with, when feminism was first like class as a thing and everything, it was more fighting for like equal rights, you know, fighting for like literally laws to vote, to own property. Whereas now it's really different from that. And I feel like it's a bit more, what's the word, a bit more covert.
SPEAKER_00I feel like it's like slowly become I don't I think it's like a a good thing in a way because it means that we've like come really far with it, but I think it's become more of a more of a cause for people who feel like invisible or like hurt by certain things like standards and like traditions and stuff like that. Because there's a lot of attitudes in the media and like sort of more under the carpet, like you don't you don't notice it unless it directly affects you. So that's so it's a lot of women and even men, thankfully, fighting for like I guess the feeling that you're like worth as much, yeah, yeah. Rather than like like simply like laws and stuff, because in our country at least we've got that pretty pretty much down to it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what I find a little bit frustrating, like now I feel like before it was like so clear what people were fighting for, and like to to me it was like the right to vote. Whereas now it's like so many people's arguments is like you've got what you want, and you know, we're all equal, and you can get what jobs you want, you don't have to like be a stay-at-home mum and stuff, and it's like, well, yeah, but like also now I feel like it's such a much more problem with like microaggressions, and I talk with my friends about this a lot, and like I was thinking about this, how like when I was younger, I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm feminist, like this is you know, women's rights, but things didn't really affect me until I was like maybe starting to be like 16, 18, kind of people shouting on the street, or like that doesn't happen as much, I feel, but like things like people like men ask offering to like help me with certain things, or like being or over-explaining, like mansplaining. Oh my god, honestly, like mansplaining is one of the like the most annoying things in my entire life. Like, literally, I feel like I spend my whole life being like, Yes, I know. And like you said, you can't really understand it as as easily if you haven't experienced it yourself.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01And like when I was younger, I was like, Yeah, yeah, cool, feminism, whatever, but I don't think we have much of a problem. But now, like experiencing it more. Don't know where I was going with that, but you know you get what I mean. I'm quite curious because you're 18, you just turned 18, right? Yeah, yeah. And like, do you how do you feel like do you feel like you experience microaggressions now? Do you notice it a lot? Or like do you feel like it's changed over time? Because I've heard people have been like shouted at in their uniform when they're like 12 or something. Like it only happened to me when I was like 16, I think. But like, have you noticed it more, or like how have you kind of experienced that so far in your life?
SPEAKER_00I think um I I don't if if I have been shouted at, I've like forgotten about it and I've probably just pushed that away. Yeah, yeah. But um I don't I don't know if this is like answering the question, sorry. It's like from a quite a young age, a lot of older men have like no boundaries and they think that they sort of are entitled to suggest things about what you should wear or how you should behave because you're a girl. Um like I don't know who it would be, but um like you pe especially when it's people that don't know you that well, or the or even strangers or like family friends or whatever that you don't you've never spoken to really because you're literally a child. Yeah. Where they're like, mmm, oh that kind of behaviour's a bit mature for you, or or not mature enough, or there's like always some kind of compromise that you're trying to make to please everyone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But yeah, I think that's so right because something that I've kind of come across doing a couple of these podcasts is like how much we end up doing things to try and please other people.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And often like I catch myself doing something, or like what I literally hate, I get this sometimes, especially in the summer. I have like these clothes I really like to wear and like certain things that make me feel really good, but then there's like there's certain things I look at and I'm like, oh no, not today. And then I think, why have I thought that? And I think, oh no, because I'm meeting somebody or I'm, you know, I know I'm gonna be in public, especially. I don't know if you get this, but like at the start of summer when I'm first putting my summer clothes on and people are like starting to wear summer clothes, I always like have to take a few days, maybe a week or so, to like get into wearing my summer clothes because I know for a fact that the first couple of weeks of summer is gonna be like not horrendous, but like people are gonna like, especially well, men really stare at you, look at you, call you. And what I found really annoying is like this thing where they like keep eye contact with you and you look away and you look back, and they're still keeping eye contact with you, and it's it's something that you can't really explain to people who haven't experienced it, but it's so uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_00It's like a like a it's it's a psychological, like they don't probably realise they're doing it, but it's like trying to intimidate and trying to get like a like a leg up.
SPEAKER_01It's definitely that.
SPEAKER_00It's just creepy otherwise.
SPEAKER_01Totally creepy. And this this one man, actually, at the start of this summer, I kind of hadn't even really thought about like I'd forgotten that like you forget that this happens and then you wear your like revealing clothes in air quotes like and this one man like was looking at me and like this was in Corona time, so I was like, We're not meant to be walking close to each other, it was like during like the peak time, and he was like running really close to me towards me and staring me in the eye, and then as he ran close to me, he like smiled. And I was like, he like smiled in a creepy way. It's not like smile like you smile and look away and carry on walking. It was like a weird smile. So I just looked at him and I love doing this thing where I like look, you know, you look them in the eye, you look them up and down, and then you just like and you give them like a funny look, like, who are you? kind of thing. Because it's like I'm gonna do the same as you're doing to me. And then I I in my peripheral vision I saw him turn around and run back the same way, and I was like, Oh my god. And I was like literally in the in the process of calling my mum and she hadn't picked up, and I was like, Mum, just please just pick up, but she didn't. But anyway, I saw him coming towards me again, like closer this time, and I knew he was about to talk to me. So as he came closer, I was like, Hi mum, how are you doing? And like pretending to talk to her, even though I wasn't even talking to her. This is the middle of the day as well. And then he was like, as I said hi mum, he started talking to me, and then he looked at me, really he looked really angry, and he like walked, ran, carry on running. And then, ten meters later, he turns back around, oh my god, and starts running back towards me. And I was like, Oh my god, what the fuck is going on? And he runs past and he picks up in his phone, he's like, Hi dad, yes, I'm fine, thank you very much. Everything's going well. Like, clearly, like pretending to be on the phone talking to his dad.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01And this this had all come clearly because he'd been trying to hit on me, and I'd been like, No, you're a weird 50 year old man who's like running and bathed, those shorts are way too short for you, you know what I mean? And it was just it kind of was a like quick reminder, like, yeah, you shouldn't really wear anything that's even slightly revealing. This wasn't even revealing, it was just I was wearing a dress, you know what I mean? And it's just like, you kind of feel like in this day and age, especially in the UK, that we should be at a point where I can wear what I want. And I can wear what I want, but if I wear what I want, people are gonna look at me and judge me and look me up and down and stare at my boobs and whatever, you know what I mean? And it's just so Yeah. And it's it's these things I feel like people don't really realise unless you experience them, like you said, because someone's like, oh, if someone's looking at you in the eye, what does it matter? But it's like well, I don't want to be looked at, you know? I don't want to be stared down while I'm just on the phone to my friend, you know? In terms of how feminism has changed, I feel like now people are like, Yeah, I'm a feminist, but if you kind of start talking about feminism to me in a way that's kind of like obvious, you go a bit deeper than just like I want to have a job as an engineer, kind of thing, you know? Yeah, people kind of see you. I actually got this the other day, someone said, like, the fact that I don't shave under my arms. Yeah, most people probably think you're like an arch feminist. And I was like, What? Like, sorry, and clearly, like, this is the thing, this is what people some people think if you like start going a bit deeper than just like, oh, we've all got equal rights. People start thinking like, you're an arch feminist, so you're really radical, and being like, actually, no, that's not a good thing. And it's like, but this is feminism.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I feel like um a lot of women actually have like a a problem with feminism, which always baffles me because I'm like with trying to help you feel more comfortable and feel like you don't have to have these kind of pressures and you can do what you want, but the fact that you're against it or really hostile towards it a lot of the time because you associate it with this like super radical and extreme thing, which it isn't it's like a such a fine, like small percentage of it. It's like the it's like the same thing as equating a particular religion to terrorism. Like it's it's not that doesn't define the thing, but they can't quite get over it because they think like sometimes you do get people who are lucky enough to have not really experienced any kind of like negative things just because of their gender. And so then they think that nobody else has or they don't understand why it's such a like hurtful thing to have to deal with a lot of the time. And when you're not aware of how uh uncomfortable it can make people feel, you seem to then portray this sort of like anti feminist vibe in a way that's uh that's making them even more uncomfortable, but you just I don't know, they they c they're like in denial about it a lot of the time. Um sorry, I forgot what the question was.
SPEAKER_01I don't know what the question was either, really. No, I mean that's fine. I feel like that's exactly what I've what I feel and I think I've known anyway, but I also kind of reading a couple of different things about different waves of feminism feminism and stuff, and often kind of like feminism is j like has been and kind of still is like directed at kind of the middle class white woman kind of thing. And something that I found really interesting, like I've heard about the three waves of feminism and stuff like that, and I was reading something the other day and it came up something like the fourth wave of feminism, and I was like, oh hello, are we in the fourth wave of feminism? I don't know, it's something that's like kind of some people think it's a thing and some people don't, but it's a lot more about intersectionality, not just talking about white women and our problems than talking about like race or sexuality and things like that. And one of the things that I find really interesting and also really frustrating is like exclusionary feminism, like trans-exclusionary feminism, or you know, this kind of thing. Like the first I just figured out found out the first wave of feminism, people were like looking for the right to vote, but they were like, but black women can't vote, and we don't want black men to be like leading us, you know, we don't want them to be our bosses. We we want the vote as like white women, but like black women and black men, they shouldn't have it. I find it so frustrating when some people are like, Yeah, but trans women, you know, they're not women, and this kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00And I'm like, it's so maddening.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's just like if you're gonna be a feminist, you've gotta accept everyone, every woman. It's all about women, and it's actually all about equality. So it's not just about getting all women to have the vote or to have rights, it's also about uh trans women or it's about black men and it's about like everyone being equal.
SPEAKER_00I I hate it so much. I hate it because I I know quite a few people who are trans and the idea that I don't I don't understand how people can stand there and and maintain the opinion that it only affects them when that's such a like a hypocritical thing to think. Because imagine if someone was saying that about you and your beliefs about feminism. Like imagine if it was the other way around and people were saying like, oh well you can't you can't care about POC rights because you're a a woman, like then you'd be so you'd be so angry with them because that's not like fair, that's not how it works.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But they have this opinion that fair experience is the only experience when it's not. And I I don't understand how you can be uh call yourself a feminist and then not also care about play rights and children's rights for people of colour, for people of different marginalized communities and stuff. Because there's it's so intertwined and there's so much uh goes on behind the curtain of like what's the general media coverage of it. So you might see like famous marches in America and you see like images of those protests and stuff with all the pink hats, which is like kind of iconic image. But then I guess people aren't as normalized to all the other types of people fighting that they're actually so by default when you're already in a place of privilege in one area and you're fighting for rights in another, so like for example, the like middle class white women fighting for like feminism. Sure, but you've got things you've got to fight for to try and make it better for you, but you already come from a place which is quite a lot easier to live in than most communities have, do you know what I mean? Like that was the worst grammar of a sentence I've ever said, but you get the gist.
SPEAKER_01No, no, I think that's that's exactly how I feel as well. And I've had a couple of people like say to me, or say, you know, when somebody's fighting for like gay rights or trans rights, or they just like, you know, they feel quite strongly about it, and it's like, oh, but are they um are they gay or you know, are they trans? Or like what kind of like why are they why are they fighting for it? And it's like, you know, white people are fighting for the rights of black people. It doesn't mean if you're white you can't be like black people should be as equal as white people. So why is it that if when somebody's being like gay people should have the same rights or trans people should have the same rights, why does it mean that like I personally have to be affected by that to like be able to fight the fight? And it's like actually, no, most of the time the people who have the privilege are the most likely to be able to make the change, especially in their own circles. Because I think that's also part of the problem. Like, I find myself a lot kind of like talking into the echo chamber, you know what I mean? Like in the little bubble that I live in, especially for instance, this podcast, like I know the people who are listening to it are probably people who have very similar views to me, and people who I like talk to, like, even though I'm trying to like make it more diverse and stuff, are generally people who hold similar views at least. And it's like, for instance, with feminism, getting into like male-dominated spaces or say like locker rooms or things like that, and that and trying to like share your views or opinions or your thoughts in that space is gonna be a lot harder to get to that place than it is to like just chat with your friends who already kind of feel the same as you.
SPEAKER_00Definitely get very discouraged when they're faced with like people who just aren't familiar with your view on it. They they just they see that as the complete like bottom of the barrel. You're just trying to be like, well, maybe if you actually thought about it and you actually listen to someone, then you get it.
SPEAKER_01But the weirdest thing actually, and I just honestly, this was something that just I could not forget. I was talking with like like a couple of guys and who I thought, well, they are very open-minded people, like, and we talked about a lot of different things. We would I was talking about the fact that when I was travelling in certain countries, I got catkouled more than I did like in other countries, or like where it was hot and I'd be wearing shorts and stuff, I'd get stared out or catcouled more there than I did in places where it was cooler. And I was saying how that day specifically, I just was feeling really like worn down because it happened so many times, and it's it's not nice when someone's like shouting at you, and at one point, like a bus and then two bikes, like honestly directly after each other, like tooted and shouted like a bus with people on it, like the driver of the bus shouted out the bus at me. And I just remember being like, Oh my god, okay, and I was just telling them about it, and then one of them who like I thought was really open-minded, and he is an open-minded person, but he was like, So, I mean, what are you gonna do about it? Like, why don't you just like start a charity or something? Like, to help people I just I'm just like, what? Like, you're just so removed from this situation that you don't understand. Like, not every woman on this planet is gonna start a charity to stop street harassment. It should be the fact that people are educated so they don't have to like deal with street harassment kind of thing. And it's just things like that where people are so removed from it and that they just don't understand, not don't understand, but they can't really see your perspective quite as much. And it was almost it was like, why are you complaining so much? Do something about it or stop complaining kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00And it's like But it's like what do you want me to do? Like, all I all I can do is talk to you and talk to other people and and affect my space that I have, like Yeah you can't be Michelle Obama or Malala, you can't even be like these women with these platforms, yeah because there are billions of women who just have to exist and just try to fight the level fight when they're doing it, you know.
SPEAKER_01And what I thought was ironic about that situation as well is that I was like, I am actually trying to do something about it by talking to both of you who clearly have are very like they're like white, very privileged guys. I was like, by talking to you, I'm trying to like explain my situation, like I'm trying to like be like, this is what happens all the time, and you're just being like, Oh, do something about it.
SPEAKER_00It's like okay, I'm trying.
SPEAKER_01This is me doing it. Uh yeah, I don't know. On that note, what I found a little bit frustrating, and I know not everyone can do this, but sometimes in feminism, in in everything, I think, in any kind of activism activism and stuff, is like the difference between what people say and what people do. For instance, let's take shaving, for instance, because like that's something that I'm I I know you sometimes shave, you sometimes don't. At the moment, like I'm not really shaving, maybe at some point I will, but like right now I feel like this is quite like a thing for me and I and I feel like really comfortable with it. But I also realise I'm like in a space where I can do that, and in a space where like I feel comfortable to do so, whereas I have gone to other places and I've been like I don't feel comfortable with doing this, so I have shaved, which made me feel sad, but also been like, well, that's just how I feel right now. But um, I was talking with a guy, I don't know, a couple of years ago, and he I we were talking about shaving, and he was like, Yeah, and you know, this is kind of thing women can, you know, shave or just shave or don't shave, like it doesn't really matter, kind of thing. And I was talking to him and he was like, Yeah, yeah, but you know, I think. Um, if I had a girlfriend, I think I probably would ask it to shave under her arms because that's just like you know the one thing. I just I'm really creeped out by it. Like, you know, I just you know, I I have no problem. He kept going, I have no problem with it, but like I think I'd ask my girlfriend to shave and um because I just it I find it really creepy and I was like oh my god, this is the exact problem, you know. Like people say things like it's fine for people not to shave, or um you don't have to wear makeup, or I don't know, wear revealing clothes if you want, but then when it actually comes down to it people have a completely different idea about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I get it a lot of the time. I remember having I was having a conversation with um like a really close friend of mine on the train back from Birmingham at the time. And I remember because we were like talking about it quietly, we felt like if someone heard it, we wouldn't want to like weird them out because we were talking about paying and stuff. And I was I I had like shaved like all my life apart up until like that point because it was like a couple of years ago. And I was just saying, like, I really don't want to anymore. I don't I don't want to, and I feel like the only thing that makes me do it is the fact that I know like in a sick upsetting that I was in at the time or like friends or like family or whatever, or we like judged for that. And um I I had this like I mean I still I still think this is like an actual thing because it is like a problem, but I had this like really strong belief that no one like you're less likely to get like asked out or like have like romantic like interests because if if like if you're not shaving or stuff like or not wearing makeup and stuff, which I I think is so like screwed up. It's it's like terrible that that that that happens, but it does happen, and like most guys like even if they do say stuff along the lines of like yeah, you know, I wouldn't care if people didn't shave. Like you said, if if they actually wanted to like go out with someone, they would feel like they had the right or the entitlement to be able to just ask, like, yeah, can you do this? Can you change this about your own body? Because it weirds me out, but like, why does it weird them out? They have it. We like if we asked them to start like most not every guy, obviously, if if we asked most guys to start shaving their armpits and legs every time they had a shower, like like all the time, it's like takes time, doesn't it? You have to buy razors, you have to buy like moisturizers and stuff. If we asked them to do that, they'd be like, no, why would I bother doing that? Well, it's like, well, we why do we bother doing that? Because you have this like ingrained problem with it in your head for no reason. And the amount of money like people spend every year on like getting waxed or whatever it is, like it's an insane amount of money to have to spend on something that's so like arbitrary.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What I find like similar, like on that kind of still on like not shaving and stuff, I think people often guys are like, yeah, no, we don't really care, or not not even guys, anyone really, I don't really care about it. But I always think to myself, if I'm in a bar or anywhere, and people say somebody like had to exactly two versions of me, and one obviously had like shaved legs, and one obviously didn't, and it was like quite clear. I am 98% sure that almost every guy would go, and like I'm not just obviously this is like heterocentric, and not I'm just talking about guys from my own experience, and I think generally it is men who have more of a problem, but it is also women, like as we've said. Yeah. But whoever it is would probably choose the person with the shaved legs. Part from the fact that we have this like ingrained idea about like women look more beautiful and you can see their legs when they're shaved and everything, or under their arms, or whatever, it's just like they look more chic and more whatever it is. I don't, you know, I suppose more clean. I don't even know. And also what I've realized it's like the connotation that comes with having shaved legs, having shaved underarms. It is that kind of like arch feminism, radical feminism idea. If you have, if you don't have shaved legs or underarms, you are sending a very clear message to whoever sees you that I believe very strongly, so strongly that I'm willing to put myself out into this position where sometimes it's a little bit uncomfortable that I think we should be able to do this, and I want to do this. And even sometimes I think like with shaving, I think like, do I actually want to? And like it would be so much easier for me if I didn't shave, if I did shave, sorry. It would be so much easier, you know. Sometimes I like I work in a bar and I'll like go and grab some glasses from above, and as I'm doing it, I'm like, Yes, people can see this, and then you see like other customers or people I work with like glancing down and they pretend not to look and I'm I'd rather that than people being like or something, but you can still tell they're being like oh, but in a way, I'm like I'd rather people like see it and be like, Oh, that's a thing now, kind of thing, rather than you know, I can't even remember where I was going with this, but it's like the the connections that go with just visibly having hair is so much more than it like looking nice or not, it's a lot more to do with like you have very strong feminist ideas on yeah this, whether that's true or not, and it's just like part of the reasons I'm doing it is because I want to like stop people thinking those things every time they see someone with shaved legs or shaved arms, because like a lot of my friends don't shave, and like to me it's just a normal thing now, like but then when when I like go to other groups or like maybe not my family, but like people at home or like not that they're backwards or anything, I'm not saying that, but I think it's not as common as like in cities, everyone like just kind of just tends to do a lot more of everything, and there's more people obviously, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I feel like there's there's a lot like in a city setting, you have a lot more there's like a huge mix of people with different beliefs and different like ways of living their lives, and you s probably see it more often even if it is still a shock. But small towns, like I'm in Ross right now. If I if some if I walk down the street with like lucky for well, not even lucky, but like just for me, my leg hair is like super light, so even when I say green, I must barely see it anyway. But um, so it's like it's not that noticeable, but I remember like distinctly, because obviously um my safe form is like in this town I live in, which is like it's a very conservative uh town. There's like a lot of people about with that sort of view, and um I remember I'd like some days I'd just forget about it and I'd f or I or I'd feel like comfortable enough to do it, but often when I was in synth form, like I'd find myself when I like wasn't shaving under my arms, I'd like keep my arms down all day, and I'd oh my gosh, one time um a teacher saw it, like because I had my aunt I reached up or something, and I just noticed their like little glance, like they didn't care because they're like quite progressive of self, like they didn't care at all, but I just felt like I was like, Oh no, I've done like I've done something that's like really outrageous. I felt like even though it's like totally not, yeah, yeah, it's just ridiculous.
SPEAKER_01And like the feeling of like, oh I'm yeah, I'm doing something wrong, kind of like almost shame, and it's like we're shamed into doing things because it's like not what everyone else does, where actually like for instance, I don't know, maybe like my grandma, I know, or our grandma, like she didn't shave under her arms. My mum was telling me the other day that like back then people didn't, and like her generation and the generation before it wasn't a thing. Like, why would you shave under your arms? One thing that makes me laugh so much is like these period dramas and stuff, and you get all these women dressed up, and all of them have shaved arms and shaved legs. That is not peop women didn't do that back then, and it only kind of came in when like with raises and stuff, and they were trying to upsell this stuff, and saying uh I think the reasoning originally was like hygiene reasons or something, and honestly, I don't get with legs, I kind of get with underarms, maybe it's a bit of weird flock. It's more sweaty or something, and I have noticed that like I have to put more deodorant on, and you know, I do feel like the sweat just stays there rather than just kind of like evaporates, maybe, but like with leg hair, I think it like honestly is just genuine like a com cosmetic thing where you can like see women's outline even more.
SPEAKER_00There's nothing unhygienic about leg hair at all.
SPEAKER_01No, any hair, it's all there for a reason.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know. And people who like shave if that was the reason, then men would shave too.
SPEAKER_01Exactly, and people who like shave down there as well, like they shave the whole thing. Like, once I tried that, it was the most painful experience of my life. I just remember like sitting, I think it was probably in six form or something, sitting in a class and being like, I just why did I do this? Like, just you know, oh no, you get the razor bumps and then it's like it's just like it's horrible. You can't put cream down there because it's like you're just gonna ruin everything. No! Oh god. But I suppose on that, not on that topic, but like moving on a little bit, to being complicit, you know, this idea of like with a lot of things, I think we're hearing a lot of things coming up with like Black Lives Matter and like movements like that, feminism and trans rights, and there's this kind of idea of like how to say it but well, being complicit, just like instead of speaking up when something happens, just kind of like either ignoring it or even like doing things yourself that you don't really realise, or you you once you've you know you've said it, or I can't think like being derogatory towards yourself or something, or saying something and uh saying making making a joke about a woman and having a sandwich in the kitchen or you know, something stupid, and you're like, but actually, like that's being c not compl I suppose complicit is the best word I can use, but in the sense of like not really helping the cause, if you know what I mean. And calling people out as well, which I really try and do a lot, but it really depends on the situation you're in, and almost always, unless you're with somebody who's very progressive or is very aware of what we're aware of, like feminism and or just any any kind of activism or any that kind of thing in general, calling people out is kind of quite an awkward thing, and often people get offended by it and they make excuses by it, and they a lot of times people I've said something and they've been like, oh no no, and they've like argued with me, and then but I in my head I'm like I know they're gonna go away and they're gonna think about that and they're gonna come back, and they're not gonna say that I'm right, but they're gonna like you know they're gonna try and change probably they'll try and change, or like it's happened to me once or twice when something quite big's happened and they've argued with me, and I've been like, No, that's really not what I believe. And then like they've never said anything to me again, but like the next time the similar thing happens, they then have changed their behaviour.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I do find it's really hard to call people out.
SPEAKER_00It is so difficult.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So difficult. Like you you feel like you're attacking someone when really you're actually doing the opposite.
SPEAKER_01Things like people like call you darling or like lovely or love, and I'm and I even once or twice a couple of people I know are caught to do that, and I'm like, and whenever they say it, I'm like, darling? And they're like, Oh, why is that a problem? And I'm like, Because I don't like it, I feel patronized, don't use it, and then they'll stop for a while, and then after a while they'll carry on saying it again. It's like okay, this is what's going on here. It's such a weird phrase, I don't like it. Yeah, I mean anything like that is just really frustrating. Because it's like also, I I don't know if you have this, and I think we've all got this kind of problem in a way when we've got ingrained bias or what's the word, like unconscious say, like things like internal homophobia, internal racism, internal um how would you call it, sexism. But like, why was I saying that? Oh, because I have like a lot I feel like a lot of my friends are progressive, but sometimes they'll say something or do something, and so will I. I know I do like things and they'll call me out and I'll call them out. And it's odd, it I find it really odd that we're all like kind of in this space when we like feel like we're quite progressive and then we go and do do or say something that's yeah really weird. Do you find that at all or do you notice it a lot?
SPEAKER_00I do sometimes sometimes I'm well because I'm always like trying to talk to my mates and stuff and like have these conversations, yeah. And then like educating myself on it as well, like trying to be active in it, and then and then I'll just I'll just do something or say something that's completely like out of left field, and I'm like, wait, what yeah, where did that even come from? Or like I'll just think like even like a passing thought, and then I'm like, wait, what why did I even what is going on? How did that even happen in my head? Yeah, it's just because it's like these ideas that it's so like it goes so deep like into even the way school textbooks are written, news reports are like the way they're written and spoken, like the emphasis on certain things being negative or whatever, you sort of pick it up or like TV and film and stuff, it does so much stuff, it just is just like so subtle, but it like constantly reiterates these like really negative like notions, yeah. And so we we pick them up without even it's like involuntary, like we don't want it, we don't realise we're doing it, but we pick up these like stupid like backwards ideas just because we're around them constantly. Yeah, some people obviously pick them up more than more than most but um it's just it just sucks big time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, with TV, I I honestly once you've kind of started to realise it and you notice more and more and more and you start thinking about it. Honestly, I I can't remember watching like a program or a film recently where I haven't been like for God's sake, like the cli like the best one that I've think I've seen is like I May Destroy You. Have you watched that? Oh, I haven't yet most photos because I've honestly it's just apart from anything, it's just so intersectional and it's so well thought out. But like, I mean, I know you've probably heard that, so yeah, definitely watch it. But like that is probably the only thing recently that I've watched that I've been like, no, that was like I haven't thought like this is problematic. Things where you know, you've got like this. I was watching, I can't remember, a series the other day, where you have like this uh really empowered female lead, um, and she's got great female characters, and it seems quite a diverse cast, and you know, it's it seems great, and then suddenly, oh um the man is constantly being like, No, you shouldn't do that, like be careful and being like, I'll come with you because you you need to be safe, and or or you know, things like often I've noticed like with what's the word, like not sex scenes, like intimacy. Intimate scenes, yeah. And it's like instead of just like kissing, like I would like to be kissed softly or something, you know what I mean? They're kind of like pushed against a wall and like grabbed, and then like the man just like kisses her, like clearly quite unconscious unconsensually, and it's like, oh, people both both of this is very romantic and lustful and lustful, lusting lust, whatever. Um, but it's like so frustrating that even now when there are certain things that like this is a really like you know, intersectional, uh whatever, we've got a great diverse cast, we've got a female lead, but still this female lead does need this, this, and this, and she loves violent sex, and she loves, you know, a man to look after her, and she can't hunt because you know, women don't do that kind of thing, and it's never said, but you know, you can see them constantly like dropping it in, and it's like yeah, this is something that needs to be said when it's presented to you like throughout it, like with subtle like visuals.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because it is it just happens, doesn't it? Like all of these things are written to happen in it, yeah. Even if it's not a character being like, you can't do that because you're a woman.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It just you're stopped from doing it anyway.
SPEAKER_01So and I think often like on a similar in a similar vein with with women, the exact same thing happens with say black people or I don't know, gay people, or trans people, or how either they're just thrown in because it's like we're gonna have a little bit of diversity, we're gonna sprinkle some extra people who aren't white cis people around here. They're either like the extra character or they're like the little sidekick, or they're the you know, the token gay person. And you know what actually really annoyed me? I was I remembered what I was watching, I was watching the cursed on Netflix, and if you've watched it, it's kind of funny, but yeah. And they had like all these different clans, right? And they had the main clan with the main character, and she was like a white woman, and she like her clan was kind of normal, and they would have like little leaves on their face come up whenever they changed or whatever. I think they were fairies, I don't even know. And every other clan was like like very clearly like a different race, and it was just like, oh my god. So you had like um black people and they had all these like skulls on like on their head and like antenna where they'd like I guess killed things and put them on their heads, and they just look like quite scary, and then you had like um I think South Asian people who were like the snake people, and they'd been um their makeup was like basically all snakes, or they they looked like kind of um like lizards or snakes, and then you had what was the other one? Oh my god, there was another group of people who were some other um ethnicity, and it was like all of the other clans who weren't who weren't the main ones all looked weird and kind of scary and you know, or had tattoos on their face, and they they didn't look they weren't the normal main clan, you know. The main clan of the main thing was you know, white cis, didn't really they looked like like quote unquote human, whereas like the others were clearly like made to look different and like very clearly like completely separate ethnicities. There was no like diverging from these little and it was like, oh my god, what is going on?
SPEAKER_00All of the different, all of the other races have had like super negative looking like visuals, like definitely snakes are like literally mean like evil. Literally, like the serpent, like devil, and then you've got skulls which just clearly death, like that's just all negative, and then the the pretty white ones are the ones with the cute like leaves and whatever.
SPEAKER_01And they were the ones that spoke English, and the other clans didn't speak English, right? So then they were like speaking to the woman who was speaking English, and she was like, I don't understand what you're saying.
SPEAKER_00It's like, oh my god, what is wrong in one of the trained to be a translator in your clan?
SPEAKER_01Please. I don't know, like, and I was talking to one of my friends about it, and she was like, Oh, surely that was like kind of like a common, like comment on society and how society works. I was like, I genuinely don't think it was. I genuinely think someone wrote this and was like, Oh, it's cool, we're gonna use like black people for this clan and like Asian people for this clan and whatever for Arabic people for this clan.
SPEAKER_00It's like okay, not good. Just for the sake of it, not for any actual like statement. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Anyway, um, if you're gonna watch Cursed Guys, it's got a great storyline, but watch out for the sexism, racism, whatever else is them, because it's very obvious. Oh, anyway, right, I think probably, yes, we have gone quite far into the time. But was there anything else you felt like I feel like I need to say this, India? We haven't covered it. Anything, you just like just need to say it before we leave. Fine if not.
SPEAKER_00Um that's so much pressure now. I don't know, I don't know, I can't prefer anything.
SPEAKER_01No, it's fine if not. I mean, I feel like it's been quite a good convo.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we there's like so well, there's like so much to unpack, isn't there? Let us we could talk for hours. We can do an we can do another every single person.
SPEAKER_01I'm like, next time we'll do a different one, another podcast.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, thanks so much for being with me, Kat. Even though you're there, I'm here, we make it work. And well, see you next time. So we've come to the end of another great podcast. I hope you've all enjoyed. Thank you so much to everyone who's been part of making this podcast. I look forward to seeing you all next time.